Martin Carthy: Finger pickin' good

Written by Dermot Watson on Monday, 28 June 2010

Martin Carthy is a blue-blooded member of the folk music aristocracy, and one of the players who has defined the playing of fingerstyle guitar. Fifty years into his career, he’s still as fanatical and curious about music as when he first emerged from the 1960s folk club scene. The Bum Note Club caught up with Martin before a gig in Brighton and we spoke about signature guitars, open tunings – and the hazards that washing-up liquid can hold for the acoustic musician.

BNC: Will you be using the Martin ’59 OOO18 tonight?

MC: I’m using the custom model that Martin made for me. It’s a OOO18 MC.

Can you explain why you use a zero fret?

For me, it’s to do with response. You can’t get any guitarist who uses a zero fret to agree with you, but I speak as I find. The original ’59 didn’t have a zero fret but in 1968 I met a guy in the Northwest when I was playing with Dave Swarbrick. The guy, Stan Francis, had a real reputation as he had built a 12-string for Pete Seeger, which made his name. He came along, so I asked him for a re-fret. He said: “Sure, but I’ve got a lot on. If you give me yours for a week I’ll loan you a guitar and do it for you”.

When he took mine away he said he’d really like to put in a zero fret and promised to change it if I didn’t like it. When it came back beautifully re-fretted (with a zero fret) I could hardly play it as it was so fast. The response was staggering.

There are a lot of Martin purists who have come up in the past and said “what a beautiful sounding guitar”, then have seen the zero fret and said “my God, what have you done”,  then walked away in disgust. They’re the ones who originally said it sounded beautiful. Maybe it would sound the same – and I’m not going to stand on my dignity – but as I say, I speak as I find.

At Martin, when they made the guitar they had a problem with it [making a zero fret]. It was a PR problem, but they got around it by saying “he’s European”.

I’ve been to the Martin factory to make a pilgrimage...it’s quite a place, isn’t it?

Absolutely. They all love the instrument, love the wood and love the work.

I remember it being quite a generational place, with mother/daughter combinations working on inlays...

It’s amazing how much work women do there.

I remember the chap saying how women are better at delicate work as a lot of men’s hands are too fumbling and big.

Women do make great guitars. There is one fabulous maker in Canada called Linda Manzer  who  is a pupil of Jean Larrivee, one of the eminence grise of guitar makers in Canada. He’s got all sorts of pupils like Grit Lasking and Linda.

Linda Manzer is blindingly good. She’s got the magic touch. I love her guitars for two reasons: the first is that when I was in Canada, I went into a guitar shop and saw this guitar that looked like a Larrivee but wasn’t. The person in the shop said it was made by a pupil of Larrivee and asked if I wanted to try it. I did, but then I couldn’t put it down. I don’t collect guitars, and then I had to think I would be carrying the guitar for the rest of the tour. I had the money to buy it, but finally had to say “behave yourself” and tune it back up and walk away.

Four years later I was on tour in Scandinavia. I got to Aarhus and was doing a radio show. There was a guy lurking... I was a little worried as I had my guitar with me. The radio guy then said, “there’s a guitar maker here who would like to show you one of his wares, would you mind?” I said I’d love to, so he called this guy over. 

I opened the case and said, “it’s a Larrivee”, but then I put my hand on the guitar and I thought of Linda Manzer. I started to play it and it was a fantastic instrument... it was gorgeous. I tuned it down, played it for 40 minutes, just noodling around. At the end I tuned it back and said to him, “do you mind if I say something?” He said “no, fine”. I said “I put my hand on that guitar and the first thing I thought of was Linda Manzer”, and he replied, “she was my teacher”.

I presume that you’re the kind of player that’s offered lots of guitars?

I’m not like John Renbourn or Martin Simpson. I’m offered guitars to play [not own]. Fylde gave me a guitar. I met him [Roger Bucknall] through Gordon Giltrap, who I met on a train. He had this guitar, which he showed to me, which was made by a young chap from Bournemouth called Roger Bucknall.

I was going down to Bournemouth anyway and was looking for another re-fret job, so I went and met Roger who did my guitar in a day. Then, he opened up his factory. He did have a ‘proper’ job but was just about to give it up. He opened his factory in Kirkham, just outside Blackpool, which is on the Fylde peninsula - that’s why they’re called Fylde. They’re now based in Penrith. His two things are guitars and snooker; I know he spent some time making snooker cues.

It must have felt like quite a privilege having the Martin guitar company approach you wanting to make a signature instrument?

It was fantastic. When I got an email, I thought that someone was taking the piss. I didn’t really believe it until the contracts came through. But, they were serious and asked, “what did I want?”

So I asked for a wider neck than on the ’59, which they said they were making anyway as they were going back to the original design. I had a split saddle, which Roger had done for me, and I also had a zero fret. They said they’d rather not do the split saddle, as everyone doesn’t tune like me. Also, they don’t do zero frets.  I said, well, if you’re doing my guitars, that’s what makes them different. The problem was with the PR people.

They did have trouble with making it. They have a designated repair man in Southampton called Vince Hockey, who is a lovely chap. They sent him along with a camera to photograph what I had. They did a mock-up, which was a mess because they didn’t understand it. It was a decent guitar, but it just wasn’t up to their standards.

Eventually [when they changed it] I took the prototype out of the case and it started to sing immediately. But when I took number one out (I’ve got two) it sang even louder. That’s the one I’m playing tonight. It’s a beautiful, beautiful instrument.

So you don’t have a large collection of guitars lying around at home?

No, I’ve got my first decent guitar, which is a small-bodied Gibson.

One of the real challenges facing acoustic musicians is how to sound acoustic when plugged in. How do you approach amplification?

I trust the equipment, as you have to plug in these days. The gear has improved in leaps and bounds. When I started plugging in it was with Barcus Berry Hot Dot pickups, which just sounded like an angry bee coming at you. Everything has now gone in to making the bee less angry. For a while I had a piezo under the bridge and I put a Radio Shack mic in. If it was a big gig, I’d use both. If it was a folk club, I’d just use the mic.

I now have a Fishman pocket blender which has a (not very good) mic in the sound hole and a thing under the bridge. The mic ameliorates the sounds. They are getting better at it.

I suppose the challenge is capturing the air as well...

Air is the trick. Whatever they do they are imitating what’s in the air. They are getting good at it, but there’s nothing like a mic.

I certainly understand that. I have tried and failed to get a good one-mic bluegrass setup going but never could find a soundman sympathetic to it.

All those bluegrass bands used to do that, and the choreography was fantastic. I saw Bill Monroe with Lamar Grier on banjo, Peter Rowan on guitar, Bill on mandolin and Richard Greene playing fiddle, who was just fantastic.

What did they make of Bill Monroe in England?

They loved him, as bluegrass was really popular then. The range of stuff Monroe did was fantastic. As well as the straight bluegrass stuff with fantastic choreography, they did spirituals. For that they all gathered around one mic and just sang. Everyone knew where to stand so the balance would be perfect.

I’ve got a recording of the Stanley Brothers doing Amazing Grace in the ‘60s, where they’re all around one mic. There’s another piece I saw on a country music channel with a whole concert of Ralph Stanley where they have a mic each, and it’s not as good.

Something happens when families sing together.  When it first happened to me with Eliza I was stunned.  It doesn’t matter what family it is, it always sounds brilliant whether you like the music or not. 

I’m interested in your guitar tuning. When I see alternate tunings written down, they usually make sense to me. Yours never did...

[Laughs] Did DADGAD ever make sense to you?

It does, because it makes me think of drones. Yours seems to come from somewhere else....

My tuning derives from DADGAD. What happens is that I’ve come to ‘cello tuning. I got there and realised that I could play in half a dozen keys with ease without a capo. I’ve nothing against capos – and I still use them – but I figured if I was capoed on the fourth fret I could actually squeeze my voice and go up to the fifth fret. If I went up to the fifth fret, surely I could find a way of playing it without a capo - and I found that I could. And the more I tried, the more I could do.

So, it became a challenge. It’s CGCDGA, so you can play in C or G with ease. Then I found I could play in D, which was interesting. Then I found I could play in F, then E minor. Then, on one particular tour, I had to play in B minor and I thought as it’s the related minor of D, it shouldn’t be such a problem. It wasn’t tremendously satisfying but I could do it. Then I found I could play in B flat with ease. Then I thought, “aren’t you clever”. Then I thought, CGDA, that’s a ‘cello tuning, so someone got there 500 years earlier and that’s why it works.

Do you ever play in ‘normal’ tuning now?

Not really. If I do an extended set with Roy Bailey there are some songs I worked out for him in normal tuning. But on my own gigs, no.

The thing about my tuning is that every string sets every other string off. As I’m playing it I can feel it resonating within me much more than with normal tuning. I feel it in my body. I also have a feeling of discovery.

What gauge strings do you use?

I use 2 seconds and a heavy gauge, which goes down from 59 to 14. I leave off the 14 and put another 18 on.

Not many people have taken Morris tunes and put them on a guitar as you have. Are there any particular challenges with trying to put tunes on a guitar, if they were never intended for that instrument?

One or two other people have done it, but the test for me is to play it for dancers. If it works for them, it works.

For me you’re just playing a tune. If you want to get particular about it, the concertina was never designed for Morris, but people use it now all the time. The fiddle’s been there for a long time, but there must have been a time when it wasn’t.

It came as a revelation to me that the bouzouki only became part of Irish traditional music in the 1960s because of a psychedelic folk band.

It was because of Johnny Moynihan (of Sweeney’s Men), he had a bouzouki ....he and Annie Briggs. They were mates.

Who made you want to pick up a guitar?

Big Bill Broonzy. The first time I heard his records, I thought it was wonderful. I heard him play that simple, wonderful swinging blues he used to do. I also heard Elizabeth Cotten. Between the two of them, that was it.

So did you start off playing in that style?

I could play like Big Bill on guitar, but I couldn’t do the singing.

I bought Elizabeth Cotten’s first album, which is now called something else but was originally called Negro Folk Songs and Tunes. I got it and learnt everything on it by ear, because you did in those days. There was no tablature, and I’m glad of that. I don’t approve of tablature but only because I think that if you don’t have that stuff you train your ears.

Ears are the most important thing, especially with this kind of music as it has so many funny corners. The great thing when you use your ears is that you go up many blind alleys and bump into walls, but you’ll learn something along the way. Everywhere leads you somewhere and you’ll come out with something worth having. Eventually, you’ll learn how to do things to your own satisfaction.

Are there any other styles that you’ve dabbled with – not necessarily in public – that we may not associate you with?

At the time, you were hungry for anybody who played the guitar. Where I lived, there were a lot of flamenco guitarists about, so you’d learn to do a cheap impression. Then, perhaps, you’d go and see them again and steal some more.

I also did some classical...anyone who came along and played, I watched them and tried to steal some of what they could do.

There were jazz guitarists around as well. There was one called Alan Stark who decided I needed educating. He gave me the Mickey Baker book of Jazz Chords. He loaned it to me for a week and I learned half the book.  Anything is worth learning. You then make your choices. I choose to make this kind of music as something about it really intrigued me and got its hooks into me. It was a deliberate choice. It didn’t mean that I thought everything else was rubbish.

Are there any players who you think haven’t been given the credit they deserve?

I never understand why people don’t say that Buddy Guy is the greatest blues player alive. He’s wonderfully crazy, and I love his craziness. He can sing to blow the house down and he can sing you to sleep with a lullaby. And he’s a fabulous player, he’s sublime. It’s rough with occasional mistakes there, but he doesn’t care. He just laughs and goes on.

After Bill Big Broonzy I started listening to Snooks Eaglin and Reverend Gary Davis. When I listened to Reverend Gary Davis I just couldn’t believe it. I knew what Snooks Eaglin was doing but I just didn’t know how to do it. The story was that he had a thousand songs that he could just pull out like that. Reverend Gary Davis is just sublime.

And all with just a thumb and one finger (on the right hand). Do you still use the metal thumbpick?

Yes, with nails. I oil them [fingernails].

What do you oil them with?

Anything: Vaseline or butter... even cooking oil. I do the washing-up at home and that tends to shred them. When you wash you’re taking all the oils out, especially if you’re using washing-up liquid. When you put it back you can just see your nails drink it up.

I know you play mandolin as well. Are there any other instruments you’ve dabbled with?

I’m an enthusiast with the banjo. Mandolin actually saved my life at one point as I was stuck with the guitar. As a matter of fact, Roger Bucknall gave me one as I had done some things for him. I started to play it and it really got me out of a hole because you had to think in a completely different way. Then, when I got out of the rut, I neglected it.

Obviously everyone’s different, but do you think it’s a good idea to play a range of instruments, or do you think life is only long enough to get your head around one?

I’ve always concentrated on guitar. I play a bit of five-string banjo but I’d never call myself very good. One day I might sit down and learn it properly.

I might say it pays to concentrate on one, but then there are players like Jody Stecker, who plays guitar, banjo, fiddle, mandolin....he could play autoharp as well if you wanted him to. He’s a great musician on them all and a fantastic singer.

You also have players like David Lindley who can play all that stuff. Some musicians have card-index minds and can play in one period and then switch to another. That sort of dedication... you can’t knock it. If you can be that good on all those instruments, then terrific.